Health Supplements Erfahrungs- und Diskussionsthread

[Redman18]

das argument ist schlüssig. kennst du den piperingehalt von pfeffer? hab zehn fenster offen und hab keinen bock noch mehr zu googlen gerade.
wie viel curcuminoide nimmst du täglich zu dir?

[simme]

kennst du den piperingehalt von pfeffer?

4.6 - 9.7% piperine in black pepper [1]
4.8 - 10% piperine in white pepper [1]

http://www.tis-gdv.de/tis_e/ware/gew...elbsterhitzung

20mg Piperin scheinen die Bioverfügbarkeit von Curcumin um 2000% zu erhöhen
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9619120

@Redman

Ich weis, es ist aufwändig, aber es wäre angebracht, wenn du deine Aussagen auch mit Quellen belegst.

[turbo-d]

das argument ist schlüssig. kennst du den piperingehalt von pfeffer? hab zehn fenster offen und hab keinen bock noch mehr zu googlen gerade.
wie viel curcuminoide nimmst du täglich zu dir?

zwischen 2-4%..ein paar mal an der pfeffermühle gedreht und man hat zwischen 700mg-1gr übers essen
gestreut demnach 20-40mg piperin verzehrt.

[Redman18]

curcumin kann als reversibler mao-a und mao-b hemmer fungieren und somit wirkt es teilweise hierdurch (und etliche andere mechanismen) antidepressiv und gegen angstzustände. es besteht aber wohl kein risiko eines serotoninsyndroms, da reversibler hemmer und in studien gemeinsam mit fluoxetin genutzt wurde. die kombi war effektiver als jeder stoff für sich.

[Redman18]

ne, kein ding. aber wirklich verstehen tun das nur leute mit ner speziellen ausbildung in den bereich.

hier zwei relative simple:

ScientificWorldJournal. 2009 Nov 1;9:1233-41.
Potentials of curcumin as an antidepressant.
Kulkarni S, Dhir A, Akula KK.
Source
Pharmacology Division, University Institute of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Panjab University, Chandigarh, India. skpu@yahoo.com
Abstract
Major depression, a debilitating psychiatric disorder, is predicted to be the second most prevalent human illness by the year 2020. Various antidepressants, ranging from monoamine oxidase inhibitors to recently developed dual reuptake inhibitors, are prescribed for alleviating the symptoms of depression. Despite the availability of these blockbuster molecules, approximately 30% of depressed patients do not respond to the existing drug therapies and the remaining 70% fails to achieve complete remission. Moreover, antidepressants are associated with a plethora of side effects and drug-drug/drug-food interactions. In this context, novel approaches are being tried to find more efficacious and safer drugs for the treatment of major depression. Curcumin is one such molecule that has shown promising efficacy in various animal models of major depression. Although the mechanism of the antidepressant effect of curcumin is not fully understood, it is hypothesized to act through inhibiting the monoamine oxidase enzyme and modulating the release of serotonin and dopamine. Moreover, evidences have shown that curcumin enhances neurogenesis, notably in the frontal cortex and hippocampal regions of the brain. The use of curcumin in clinics for the treatment of major depression is limited due to its poor gastrointestinal absorption. The present review attempts to discuss the pharmacological profile along with molecular mechanisms of the antidepressant effect of curcumin in animal models of depression. A need for clinical trials in order to explore the antidepressant efficacy and safety profile of curcumin is emphasized.


Quote:
Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2008 Dec;201(3):435-42. Epub 2008 Sep 3.
Antidepressant activity of curcumin: involvement of serotonin and dopamine system.
Kulkarni SK, Bhutani MK, Bishnoi M.
Source
Pharmacology Division, University Institute of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Panjab University, Chandigarh, India. skpu@yahoo.com
Abstract
RATIONALE:
Curcumin is a major active principle of Curcuma longa, one of the widely used preparations in the Indian system of medicine. It is known for its diverse biological actions.

OBJECTIVE:
The present study was designed to investigate the involvement of monoaminergic system(s) in the antidepressant activity of curcumin and the effect of piperine, a bioavailability enhancer, on the bioavailability and biological effects of curcumin. METHODS AND OBSERVATIONS: Behavioral (forced swim test), biochemical (monoamine oxidase (MAO) enzyme inhibitory activity), and neurochemical (neurotransmitter levels estimation) tests were carried out. Curcumin (10-80 mg/kg, i.p.) dose dependently inhibited the immobility period, increased serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine, 5-HT) as well as dopamine levels (at higher doses), and inhibited the monoamine oxidase enzymes (both MAO-A and MAO-B, higher doses) in mice. Curcumin (20 mg/kg, i.p.) enhanced the anti-immobility effect of subthreshold doses of various antidepressant drugs like fluoxetine, venlafaxine, or bupropion. However, no significant change in the anti-immobility effect of imipramine and desipramine was observed. Furthermore, combination of subthreshold dose of curcumin and various antidepressant drugs resulted in synergistic increase in serotonin (5-HT) levels as compared to their effect per se. There was no change in the norepinephrine levels. The coadministration of piperine (2.5 mg/kg, i.p.), a bioavailability enhancing agent, with curcumin (20 and 40 mg/kg, i.p.) resulted in potentiation of pharmacological, biochemical, and neurochemical activities.

CONCLUSION:
The study provides evidences for mechanism-based antidepressant actions of curcumin. The coadministration of curcumin along with piperine may prove to be a useful and potent natural antidepressant approach in the management of depression.

[Redman18]

zur 2000% studie:

"Does piperine or bioperine really much improve curcumin bioavailability or is it another supplement scam?"

Piperine, by itself in the infamous 1998 and most quoted study, barely makes curcumin available for an hour. There is no valid existing scientific research that supports the use of piperine/bioperine in a capsule with curcumin. The famous "exploratory study" of the piperine and curcumin got very poor results. Very very important to notice in this socalled study of piperine (Black pepper extract) and it's alleged transport of curcumin are these facts:

(1)The study was flawed by the knowledge that a conflict of interest existed: the study was funded by a prominant manufacturer of piperine Sami Labs Ltd, Bangalore India. This is akin to the health research on cigarettes being funded by tobbacco manufacturers. This kind of funding calls the science into question.

(2) This was a single exploratory study in 1998 with no replicative studies to date according to the data bases. There are not likely to be any followup studies because the piperine failed to make curcumin bioavailable after an hour. In short piperine doesn't do it with curcumin.

(3) The increase in absorption only succeeded during the first hour. After that piperine-curcumin matched the lack of bioavailability of regular curcumin. This would make this approach ineffective. Maybe the supplement companies can pimp their one hour product as "Curcumin Fling".

(4) The socalled piperine-curcumin exploratory experiment was performed on only 6 human beings. That's right 6. That's a tiny sample and would never make the grade as scientific evidence.

(5) Supplement companies that promote this rubbish exploratory experiment, to back their hokum, need to really look at their research sources and their ethics.

(6) Piperine because of it's effects on the drug metabolism and it's potent anticoagulant activity ought to be taken with caution. Piperine is an irritant to the stomach and prostate. It's been used as a deadly rat and mouse poison. For many years piperine was also dabbed on kitty flea collars.

(7) While I don't claim to be any great shakes at math, I wonder about the claim that this study's piperine made curcumin 2000% more bioavailable. We know that by itself curcumin is not bioavailable save when taken with an oil or fat like what's done in Indian and Thai cooking and more recently with turmeric oil and fatty phosphatidylcholine experiments. With my logic turned on I can see where curcumin's bioavailability may be increased by 100%. That would be when all of it get's into our blood and organs. But 2000% is incredibly magical. That would mean the actual volume of the amount of curcumin was increased 20 fold. That would be akin to 1 gram of curcumin being magically turned into 20 grams of curcumin getting into your blood stream and organs. Perhaps these piperine-financed researchers from that medical college in Bangalore India have also studied the "psychic sciences" showing them how to "multiply substance" by 2000%. Maybe a translater produced a typo on the percentage. But know this: Many supplement companies make the expansive claim: Piperine makes curcumin 2000% more bioavailable. (All based on a single 1998 study, using injection rather than oral administration with no replication and failing anything more than an hour hangtime)

Science takes single exploratory studies with minimum of salt especially if they are funded by an organization that will sell this product. All too often the supplement companies play on the public imagination with single exploratory "studies". Often these studies are funded by organizations that stand to profit from positive outcomes, lack controls, lack humans, have far too small a sample or are flat out misreported.

Here's a fairly recent journal study of the challenges of curcumin bioavailability. They mention studies with fatty substances, with injected piperine/curcumin, and other substances.

http://curcuminresearch.org/PDF/Anand%20P-23.pdf

[turbo-d]

ist mir jetzt nicht neu im bezug auf curcumin..

[Redman18]

was sagst du zu der kritik an der studie?
ich vermute, dass bcm-95 das derzeit beste curcumin ist. bei dem phytosome bin ich mir nicht ganz sicher.

[simme]

was sagst du zu der kritik an der studie?
ich vermute, dass bcm-95 das derzeit beste curcumin ist. bei dem phytosome bin ich mir nicht ganz sicher.

Ich?

Ich hab das mit den 2000% vor allem aus dem Affekt geschrieben, daher auch "scheint die Bio...", vor allem auch zu Zeigen, wie man etwas belegen kann ohne den ganzen Studientext zu kopieren

Ergo-Log schrieb auch die Tage draüber

http://www.ergo-log.com/piperine-mak...effective.html

[Redman18]

im grunde geht es darum, dass die erhöhe bioverfügbarkeit nur für eine stunde so hoch ist und danach nicht mehr. der komische graph da ist für mich aber unleserlich.
ich werde mir curcumin bcm-95 holen, das ist curcumin mit essentiellen ölen aus curcuma. eine 400mg kapsel entspricht wohl knapp unter 2800mg standard curcumin. da hält die erhöhung aber eben dauerhaft an.

pfeffer esse ich übrigens jeden tag, koche viel und gerne und man kann die kapseln auch mit dem essen nehmen, ist sowieso empfohlen mit fetten einzunehmen.

gruß
red